Difference between revisions of "Hubless Motor"

From i3Detroit
Jump to: navigation, search
(Project Discussion Transcript (the conversation that started it all 08/05/2010))
Line 10: Line 10:
  
 
== Project Discussion Transcript (the conversation that started it all 08/05/2010) ==
 
== Project Discussion Transcript (the conversation that started it all 08/05/2010) ==
 +
 
Bradley: how much experience do you have with linear motors?
 
Bradley: how much experience do you have with linear motors?
 +
 
me: do you mean motors that produce linear motion or actual linear motors?
 
me: do you mean motors that produce linear motion or actual linear motors?
 +
 
Bradley: linear motors
 
Bradley: linear motors
 +
 
me: I have read about them
 
me: I have read about them
 +
 
:D
 
:D
 +
 
that's like the maglev principle, right?
 
that's like the maglev principle, right?
 +
 
Bradley: kinda, the maglev works with the idea
 
Bradley: kinda, the maglev works with the idea
 +
 
the linear motor is the propulsion
 
the linear motor is the propulsion
 +
 
same prinicpal as a rotary motor
 
same prinicpal as a rotary motor
 +
 
but applied in a straight line
 
but applied in a straight line
 +
 
I plan to use it in a car hubless maglev design
 
I plan to use it in a car hubless maglev design
 +
 
as in the vehicle has no contact with the wheels and is held up my magnetic force
 
as in the vehicle has no contact with the wheels and is held up my magnetic force
 +
 
me: that sounds fascinating
 
me: that sounds fascinating
 +
 
Bradley: doesn't it
 
Bradley: doesn't it
 +
 
me: yes, it does
 
me: yes, it does
 +
 
I would be willing to help
 
I would be willing to help
 +
 
that sounds like a blast
 
that sounds like a blast
 +
 
Bradley: I hoped you say that
 
Bradley: I hoped you say that
 +
 
I want to build some prototypes and see how well it works
 
I want to build some prototypes and see how well it works
 +
 
me: yeah, nice
 
me: yeah, nice
 +
 
Bradley: then throw it on to bike based power wheels
 
Bradley: then throw it on to bike based power wheels
 +
 
me: you'll have to explain the physical principles sometime in person
 
me: you'll have to explain the physical principles sometime in person
 +
 
Bradley: think mag lev train
 
Bradley: think mag lev train
 +
 
me: yeah, except with wheels
 
me: yeah, except with wheels
 +
 
that don't touch
 
that don't touch
 +
 
Bradley: the wheels take the place of the track
 
Bradley: the wheels take the place of the track
 +
 
it's a vertically circular track if you will
 
it's a vertically circular track if you will
 +
 
me: haha, I just need to see some flux lines, that's all
 
me: haha, I just need to see some flux lines, that's all
 +
 
ok, so the rotation mechanism is similar to that of a stepper motor?
 
ok, so the rotation mechanism is similar to that of a stepper motor?
 +
 
so is the inside of the wheel lined with opposing magnetic fields?
 
so is the inside of the wheel lined with opposing magnetic fields?
 +
 
Bradley: yeah
 
Bradley: yeah
 +
 
me: I wonder how that will hold up under load
 
me: I wonder how that will hold up under load
 +
 
Bradley: magnetic force is more powerful then gravity
 
Bradley: magnetic force is more powerful then gravity
 +
 
but yeah I want to see that too
 
but yeah I want to see that too
 +
 
like can it handle 300 lbs
 
like can it handle 300 lbs
 +
 
I think neodymium magnets can easily handle that
 
I think neodymium magnets can easily handle that
 +
 
me: the car + a rider?
 
me: the car + a rider?
 +
 
Bradley: yeah
 
Bradley: yeah
 +
 
me: conceivably this should be more efficient than a standard motor
 
me: conceivably this should be more efficient than a standard motor
 +
 
Bradley: yeah no friction
 
Bradley: yeah no friction
 +
 
me: like a brushless motor
 
me: like a brushless motor
 +
 
Bradley: exactly
 
Bradley: exactly
 +
 
me: You know what, we may need to include some sort of rolling element to hold everything in place
 
me: You know what, we may need to include some sort of rolling element to hold everything in place
 +
 
Bradley: rolling element?
 
Bradley: rolling element?
 +
 
me: well, ideally the outer rim would never touch the inner rim
 
me: well, ideally the outer rim would never touch the inner rim
 +
 
Bradley: yeah
 
Bradley: yeah
 +
 
me: and would "levitate" on the magnetic fields
 
me: and would "levitate" on the magnetic fields
 +
 
Bradley: yes
 
Bradley: yes
 +
 
me: I guess we'll find out as we prototype, but I was reading that tolerances have to be really tight
 
me: I guess we'll find out as we prototype, but I was reading that tolerances have to be really tight
 +
 
so if we needed to we could use Mag fields for propulsion and a bearing for suspension
 
so if we needed to we could use Mag fields for propulsion and a bearing for suspension
 +
 
Also: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8643
 
Also: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8643
 +
 
Bradley: yeah there are companies that sell magnets in quantities of 100-500
 
Bradley: yeah there are companies that sell magnets in quantities of 100-500
 +
 
I think we would be looking at those
 
I think we would be looking at those
 +
 
me: true
 
me: true
 +
 
Bradley: and a little flatter
 
Bradley: and a little flatter
 +
 
me: so true
 
me: so true
 +
 
Bradley: but I'm going to look into engineering texts on maglev trains and such
 
Bradley: but I'm going to look into engineering texts on maglev trains and such
 +
 
I'm guessing they are using eletro magnets
 
I'm guessing they are using eletro magnets
 +
 
or even super conductors
 
or even super conductors
 +
 
also there are low speed designs and high speed designs of linear motors
 
also there are low speed designs and high speed designs of linear motors
 +
 
me: well, the control magnets have to be electro-magnets (obviously)
 
me: well, the control magnets have to be electro-magnets (obviously)
 +
 
Bradley: yeah
 
Bradley: yeah
 +
 
me: I know that maglev trains' active component is a liquid nitrogen/helium cooled superconducting magnet on the track
 
me: I know that maglev trains' active component is a liquid nitrogen/helium cooled superconducting magnet on the track
 +
 
Bradley: hmmm
 
Bradley: hmmm
 +
 
LN2 on a power wheels
 
LN2 on a power wheels
 +
 
me: the level of coordination required for a bullet train's magnet systems is scary
 
me: the level of coordination required for a bullet train's magnet systems is scary
 +
 
haha, it depends on the superconductor, now you may be able to do it with liquid helium
 
haha, it depends on the superconductor, now you may be able to do it with liquid helium
 +
 
they are getting closer and closer to room temperature
 
they are getting closer and closer to room temperature
 +
 
but they aren't there yet
 
but they aren't there yet
 +
 
I studied this in Materials Science
 
I studied this in Materials Science
 +
 
Bradley: closest I got was physics 2 and parts of quantum mechanics
 
Bradley: closest I got was physics 2 and parts of quantum mechanics
 +
 
me: close enough
 
me: close enough
 +
 
anyway, I don't know if we can sustain electromagnets on low power
 
anyway, I don't know if we can sustain electromagnets on low power
 +
 
for the levitation part
 
for the levitation part
 +
 
Bradley: oh and lots of empirical science in highschool engineering
 
Bradley: oh and lots of empirical science in highschool engineering
 +
 
I need to study magnetism again
 
I need to study magnetism again
 +
 
do they require high voltage?
 
do they require high voltage?
 +
 
me: not necessarily
 
me: not necessarily
 +
 
Bradley: lots of current?
 
Bradley: lots of current?
 +
 
me: the magnetic field is proportional to the current
 
me: the magnetic field is proportional to the current
 +
 
I just had a thought about the positioning of the levitation magnets
 
I just had a thought about the positioning of the levitation magnets
 +
 
for some reason, I am thinking we'll need an odd number of magnets on the outer rim and an even on the inner rim
 
for some reason, I am thinking we'll need an odd number of magnets on the outer rim and an even on the inner rim
 +
 
so there's not really a low equilibrium position
 
so there's not really a low equilibrium position
 +
 
are you going to be at the space tonight?
 
are you going to be at the space tonight?
 +
 
Bradley: nope
 
Bradley: nope
 +
 
I'm going to chicago
 
I'm going to chicago
 +
 
I'll be back in the space next week
 
I'll be back in the space next week
 +
 
me: ok, I am going out of town Friday-Sunday
 
me: ok, I am going out of town Friday-Sunday
 +
 
we'll coordinate
 
we'll coordinate
 +
 
Bradley: ok
 
Bradley: ok
me: I don't know if you read this article, it looks very good: http://www.recumbentjournal.com/news/gear/item/53-hubless-wheels-emerge-on-recumbent-trike.html
+
 
 +
me: I don't know if you read this article, it looks very good: http://www.recumbentjournal.com/news/gear/item/53-hubless-wheels-emerge-on-recumbent-
 +
trike.html
 +
 
 
Oooh! We can implement a sort of regenerative braking (maybe)
 
Oooh! We can implement a sort of regenerative braking (maybe)
 +
 
do we have a wiki-space for this project?
 
do we have a wiki-space for this project?
 +
 
Bradley: not yet
 
Bradley: not yet
 +
 
go ahead and make one
 
go ahead and make one
 +
 
me: will do
 
me: will do
 +
 
Bradley: though I am curious as to what kind of magnets they used.
 
Bradley: though I am curious as to what kind of magnets they used.
 +
 
I'm assuming they used those cheap magnet strips
 
I'm assuming they used those cheap magnet strips
 +
 
me: the article says it uses magnetic strips
 
me: the article says it uses magnetic strips
 +
 
but it doesn't state what kind or what strength
 
but it doesn't state what kind or what strength
 +
 
Bradley: yeah, that makes my mind think craft store supply magnets that come in rolls
 
Bradley: yeah, that makes my mind think craft store supply magnets that come in rolls
 +
 
I'm assuming the bulk of their cost came from the fact they used high grade aluminum
 
I'm assuming the bulk of their cost came from the fact they used high grade aluminum
 +
 
and the machining on those hubs looks professionally done on a lathe
 
and the machining on those hubs looks professionally done on a lathe
 +
 
or a water jet cutter
 
or a water jet cutter
 +
 
I'm thinking the heavy duty ones will work
 
I'm thinking the heavy duty ones will work
 +
 
me: I wonder if we could embed square magnets into the frame of the wheel with good results
 
me: I wonder if we could embed square magnets into the frame of the wheel with good results
 +
 
it seems to me that most magnetic strips are rather weak
 
it seems to me that most magnetic strips are rather weak
 +
 
Bradley: I was thinking of gluing them for a working protype
 
Bradley: I was thinking of gluing them for a working protype
 +
 
me: right
 
me: right
 +
 
Bradley: and using kids bike wheels
 
Bradley: and using kids bike wheels
 +
 
we can remove the spokes and hub once we are satisfied that it will work
 
we can remove the spokes and hub once we are satisfied that it will work
 +
 
me: I am going to copy and paste this conversation into the wiki for future reference
 
me: I am going to copy and paste this conversation into the wiki for future reference

Revision as of 17:04, 5 August 2010

Contents

Hubless Motor

A page for the collection of information concerning this project and the coordination of the build.

Underlying Principles

This project is based on the same principles as a Mag-Lev train except wrapped into a circle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubless_wheel

Project Information

A really good write-up about Penn State Harrisburgh's project: http://www.recumbentjournal.com/news/gear/item/53-hubless-wheels-emerge-on-recumbent-trike.html

Project Discussion Transcript (the conversation that started it all 08/05/2010)

Bradley: how much experience do you have with linear motors?

me: do you mean motors that produce linear motion or actual linear motors?

Bradley: linear motors

me: I have read about them

D

that's like the maglev principle, right?

Bradley: kinda, the maglev works with the idea

the linear motor is the propulsion

same prinicpal as a rotary motor

but applied in a straight line

I plan to use it in a car hubless maglev design

as in the vehicle has no contact with the wheels and is held up my magnetic force

me: that sounds fascinating

Bradley: doesn't it

me: yes, it does

I would be willing to help

that sounds like a blast

Bradley: I hoped you say that

I want to build some prototypes and see how well it works

me: yeah, nice

Bradley: then throw it on to bike based power wheels

me: you'll have to explain the physical principles sometime in person

Bradley: think mag lev train

me: yeah, except with wheels

that don't touch

Bradley: the wheels take the place of the track

it's a vertically circular track if you will

me: haha, I just need to see some flux lines, that's all

ok, so the rotation mechanism is similar to that of a stepper motor?

so is the inside of the wheel lined with opposing magnetic fields?

Bradley: yeah

me: I wonder how that will hold up under load

Bradley: magnetic force is more powerful then gravity

but yeah I want to see that too

like can it handle 300 lbs

I think neodymium magnets can easily handle that

me: the car + a rider?

Bradley: yeah

me: conceivably this should be more efficient than a standard motor

Bradley: yeah no friction

me: like a brushless motor

Bradley: exactly

me: You know what, we may need to include some sort of rolling element to hold everything in place

Bradley: rolling element?

me: well, ideally the outer rim would never touch the inner rim

Bradley: yeah

me: and would "levitate" on the magnetic fields

Bradley: yes

me: I guess we'll find out as we prototype, but I was reading that tolerances have to be really tight

so if we needed to we could use Mag fields for propulsion and a bearing for suspension

Also: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8643

Bradley: yeah there are companies that sell magnets in quantities of 100-500

I think we would be looking at those

me: true

Bradley: and a little flatter

me: so true

Bradley: but I'm going to look into engineering texts on maglev trains and such

I'm guessing they are using eletro magnets

or even super conductors

also there are low speed designs and high speed designs of linear motors

me: well, the control magnets have to be electro-magnets (obviously)

Bradley: yeah

me: I know that maglev trains' active component is a liquid nitrogen/helium cooled superconducting magnet on the track

Bradley: hmmm

LN2 on a power wheels

me: the level of coordination required for a bullet train's magnet systems is scary

haha, it depends on the superconductor, now you may be able to do it with liquid helium

they are getting closer and closer to room temperature

but they aren't there yet

I studied this in Materials Science

Bradley: closest I got was physics 2 and parts of quantum mechanics

me: close enough

anyway, I don't know if we can sustain electromagnets on low power

for the levitation part

Bradley: oh and lots of empirical science in highschool engineering

I need to study magnetism again

do they require high voltage?

me: not necessarily

Bradley: lots of current?

me: the magnetic field is proportional to the current

I just had a thought about the positioning of the levitation magnets

for some reason, I am thinking we'll need an odd number of magnets on the outer rim and an even on the inner rim

so there's not really a low equilibrium position

are you going to be at the space tonight?

Bradley: nope

I'm going to chicago

I'll be back in the space next week

me: ok, I am going out of town Friday-Sunday

we'll coordinate

Bradley: ok

me: I don't know if you read this article, it looks very good: http://www.recumbentjournal.com/news/gear/item/53-hubless-wheels-emerge-on-recumbent- trike.html

Oooh! We can implement a sort of regenerative braking (maybe)

do we have a wiki-space for this project?

Bradley: not yet

go ahead and make one

me: will do

Bradley: though I am curious as to what kind of magnets they used.

I'm assuming they used those cheap magnet strips

me: the article says it uses magnetic strips

but it doesn't state what kind or what strength

Bradley: yeah, that makes my mind think craft store supply magnets that come in rolls

I'm assuming the bulk of their cost came from the fact they used high grade aluminum

and the machining on those hubs looks professionally done on a lathe

or a water jet cutter

I'm thinking the heavy duty ones will work

me: I wonder if we could embed square magnets into the frame of the wheel with good results

it seems to me that most magnetic strips are rather weak

Bradley: I was thinking of gluing them for a working protype

me: right

Bradley: and using kids bike wheels

we can remove the spokes and hub once we are satisfied that it will work

me: I am going to copy and paste this conversation into the wiki for future reference