Difference between revisions of "Hubless Motor"

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(Project Discussion Transcript (the conversation that started it all 08/05/2010))
(Project Discussion Transcript (the conversation that started it all 08/05/2010))
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== Project Discussion Transcript (the conversation that started it all 08/05/2010) ==
 
== Project Discussion Transcript (the conversation that started it all 08/05/2010) ==
  
Bradley: how much experience do you have with linear motors?
+
'''Bradley:''' how much experience do you have with linear motors?
  
me: do you mean motors that produce linear motion or actual linear motors?
+
'''Daniel:''' do you mean motors that produce linear motion or actual linear motors?
  
Bradley: linear motors
+
'''Bradley:''' linear motors
  
me: I have read about them
+
'''Daniel:''' I have read about them
  
 
:D
 
:D
Line 23: Line 23:
 
that's like the maglev principle, right?
 
that's like the maglev principle, right?
  
Bradley: kinda, the maglev works with the idea
+
'''Bradley:''' kinda, the maglev works with the idea
  
 
the linear motor is the propulsion
 
the linear motor is the propulsion
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as in the vehicle has no contact with the wheels and is held up my magnetic force
 
as in the vehicle has no contact with the wheels and is held up my magnetic force
  
me: that sounds fascinating
+
'''Daniel:''' that sounds fascinating
  
Bradley: doesn't it
+
'''Bradley:''' doesn't it
  
me: yes, it does
+
'''Daniel:''' yes, it does
  
 
I would be willing to help
 
I would be willing to help
Line 45: Line 45:
 
that sounds like a blast
 
that sounds like a blast
  
Bradley: I hoped you say that
+
'''Bradley:''' I hoped you say that
  
 
I want to build some prototypes and see how well it works
 
I want to build some prototypes and see how well it works
  
me: yeah, nice
+
'''Daniel:''' yeah, nice
  
Bradley: then throw it on to bike based power wheels
+
'''Bradley:''' then throw it on to bike based power wheels
  
me: you'll have to explain the physical principles sometime in person
+
'''Daniel:''' you'll have to explain the physical principles sometime in person
  
Bradley: think mag lev train
+
'''Bradley:''' think mag lev train
  
me: yeah, except with wheels
+
'''Daniel:''' yeah, except with wheels
  
 
that don't touch
 
that don't touch
  
Bradley: the wheels take the place of the track
+
'''Bradley:''' the wheels take the place of the track
  
 
it's a vertically circular track if you will
 
it's a vertically circular track if you will
  
me: haha, I just need to see some flux lines, that's all
+
'''Daniel:''' haha, I just need to see some flux lines, that's all
  
 
ok, so the rotation mechanism is similar to that of a stepper motor?
 
ok, so the rotation mechanism is similar to that of a stepper motor?
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so is the inside of the wheel lined with opposing magnetic fields?
 
so is the inside of the wheel lined with opposing magnetic fields?
  
Bradley: yeah
+
'''Bradley:''' yeah
  
me: I wonder how that will hold up under load
+
'''Daniel:''' I wonder how that will hold up under load
  
Bradley: magnetic force is more powerful then gravity
+
'''Bradley:''' magnetic force is more powerful then gravity
  
 
but yeah I want to see that too
 
but yeah I want to see that too
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I think neodymium magnets can easily handle that
 
I think neodymium magnets can easily handle that
  
me: the car + a rider?
+
'''Daniel:''' the car + a rider?
  
Bradley: yeah
+
'''Bradley:''' yeah
  
me: conceivably this should be more efficient than a standard motor
+
'''Daniel:''' conceivably this should be more efficient than a standard motor
  
Bradley: yeah no friction
+
'''Bradley:''' yeah no friction
  
me: like a brushless motor
+
'''Daniel:''' like a brushless motor
  
Bradley: exactly
+
'''Bradley:''' exactly
  
me: You know what, we may need to include some sort of rolling element to hold everything in place
+
'''Daniel:''' You know what, we may need to include some sort of rolling element to hold everything in place
  
Bradley: rolling element?
+
'''Bradley:''' rolling element?
  
me: well, ideally the outer rim would never touch the inner rim
+
'''Daniel:''' well, ideally the outer rim would never touch the inner rim
  
Bradley: yeah
+
'''Bradley:''' yeah
  
me: and would "levitate" on the magnetic fields
+
'''Daniel:''' and would "levitate" on the magnetic fields
  
Bradley: yes
+
'''Bradley:''' yes
  
me: I guess we'll find out as we prototype, but I was reading that tolerances have to be really tight
+
'''Daniel:''' I guess we'll find out as we prototype, but I was reading that tolerances have to be really tight
  
 
so if we needed to we could use Mag fields for propulsion and a bearing for suspension
 
so if we needed to we could use Mag fields for propulsion and a bearing for suspension
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Also: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8643
 
Also: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8643
  
Bradley: yeah there are companies that sell magnets in quantities of 100-500
+
'''Bradley:''' yeah there are companies that sell magnets in quantities of 100-500
  
 
I think we would be looking at those
 
I think we would be looking at those
  
me: true
+
'''Daniel:''' true
  
Bradley: and a little flatter
+
'''Bradley:''' and a little flatter
  
me: so true
+
'''Daniel:''' so true
  
Bradley: but I'm going to look into engineering texts on maglev trains and such
+
'''Bradley:''' but I'm going to look into engineering texts on maglev trains and such
  
 
I'm guessing they are using eletro magnets
 
I'm guessing they are using eletro magnets
Line 131: Line 131:
 
also there are low speed designs and high speed designs of linear motors
 
also there are low speed designs and high speed designs of linear motors
  
me: well, the control magnets have to be electro-magnets (obviously)
+
'''Daniel:''' well, the control magnets have to be electro-magnets (obviously)
  
Bradley: yeah
+
'''Bradley:''' yeah
  
me: I know that maglev trains' active component is a liquid nitrogen/helium cooled superconducting magnet on the track
+
'''Daniel:''' I know that maglev trains' active component is a liquid nitrogen/helium cooled superconducting magnet on the track
  
Bradley: hmmm
+
'''Bradley:''' hmmm
  
 
LN2 on a power wheels
 
LN2 on a power wheels
  
me: the level of coordination required for a bullet train's magnet systems is scary
+
'''Daniel:''' the level of coordination required for a bullet train's magnet systems is scary
  
 
haha, it depends on the superconductor, now you may be able to do it with liquid helium
 
haha, it depends on the superconductor, now you may be able to do it with liquid helium
Line 151: Line 151:
 
I studied this in Materials Science
 
I studied this in Materials Science
  
Bradley: closest I got was physics 2 and parts of quantum mechanics
+
'''Bradley:''' closest I got was physics 2 and parts of quantum mechanics
  
me: close enough
+
'''Daniel:''' close enough
  
 
anyway, I don't know if we can sustain electromagnets on low power
 
anyway, I don't know if we can sustain electromagnets on low power
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for the levitation part
 
for the levitation part
  
Bradley: oh and lots of empirical science in highschool engineering
+
'''Bradley:''' oh and lots of empirical science in highschool engineering
  
 
I need to study magnetism again
 
I need to study magnetism again
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do they require high voltage?
 
do they require high voltage?
  
me: not necessarily
+
'''Daniel:''' not necessarily
  
Bradley: lots of current?
+
'''Bradley:''' lots of current?
  
me: the magnetic field is proportional to the current
+
'''Daniel:''' the magnetic field is proportional to the current
  
 
I just had a thought about the positioning of the levitation magnets
 
I just had a thought about the positioning of the levitation magnets
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are you going to be at the space tonight?
 
are you going to be at the space tonight?
  
Bradley: nope
+
'''Bradley:''' nope
  
 
I'm going to chicago
 
I'm going to chicago
Line 185: Line 185:
 
I'll be back in the space next week
 
I'll be back in the space next week
  
me: ok, I am going out of town Friday-Sunday
+
'''Daniel:''' ok, I am going out of town Friday-Sunday
  
 
we'll coordinate
 
we'll coordinate
  
Bradley: ok
+
'''Bradley:''' ok
  
me: I don't know if you read this article, it looks very good: http://www.recumbentjournal.com/news/gear/item/53-hubless-wheels-emerge-on-recumbent-
+
'''Daniel:''' I don't know if you read this article, it looks very good: http://www.recumbentjournal.com/news/gear/item/53-hubless-wheels-emerge-on-recumbent-
 
trike.html
 
trike.html
  
Line 198: Line 198:
 
do we have a wiki-space for this project?
 
do we have a wiki-space for this project?
  
Bradley: not yet
+
'''Bradley:''' not yet
  
 
go ahead and make one
 
go ahead and make one
  
me: will do
+
'''Daniel:''' will do
  
Bradley: though I am curious as to what kind of magnets they used.
+
'''Bradley:''' though I am curious as to what kind of magnets they used.
  
 
I'm assuming they used those cheap magnet strips
 
I'm assuming they used those cheap magnet strips
  
me: the article says it uses magnetic strips
+
'''Daniel:''' the article says it uses magnetic strips
  
 
but it doesn't state what kind or what strength
 
but it doesn't state what kind or what strength
  
Bradley: yeah, that makes my mind think craft store supply magnets that come in rolls
+
'''Bradley:''' yeah, that makes my mind think craft store supply magnets that come in rolls
  
 
I'm assuming the bulk of their cost came from the fact they used high grade aluminum
 
I'm assuming the bulk of their cost came from the fact they used high grade aluminum
Line 222: Line 222:
 
I'm thinking the heavy duty ones will work
 
I'm thinking the heavy duty ones will work
  
me: I wonder if we could embed square magnets into the frame of the wheel with good results
+
'''Daniel:''' I wonder if we could embed square magnets into the frame of the wheel with good results
  
 
it seems to me that most magnetic strips are rather weak
 
it seems to me that most magnetic strips are rather weak
  
Bradley: I was thinking of gluing them for a working protype
+
'''Bradley:''' I was thinking of gluing them for a working protype
  
me: right
+
'''Daniel:''' right
  
Bradley: and using kids bike wheels
+
'''Bradley:''' and using kids bike wheels
  
 
we can remove the spokes and hub once we are satisfied that it will work
 
we can remove the spokes and hub once we are satisfied that it will work
  
me: I am going to copy and paste this conversation into the wiki for future reference
+
'''Daniel:''' I am going to copy and paste this conversation into the wiki for future reference

Revision as of 17:10, 5 August 2010

Contents

Hubless Motor

A page for the collection of information concerning this project and the coordination of the build.

Underlying Principles

This project is based on the same principles as a Mag-Lev train except wrapped into a circle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubless_wheel

Project Information

A really good write-up about Penn State Harrisburgh's project: http://www.recumbentjournal.com/news/gear/item/53-hubless-wheels-emerge-on-recumbent-trike.html

Project Discussion Transcript (the conversation that started it all 08/05/2010)

Bradley: how much experience do you have with linear motors?

Daniel: do you mean motors that produce linear motion or actual linear motors?

Bradley: linear motors

Daniel: I have read about them

D

that's like the maglev principle, right?

Bradley: kinda, the maglev works with the idea

the linear motor is the propulsion

same prinicpal as a rotary motor

but applied in a straight line

I plan to use it in a car hubless maglev design

as in the vehicle has no contact with the wheels and is held up my magnetic force

Daniel: that sounds fascinating

Bradley: doesn't it

Daniel: yes, it does

I would be willing to help

that sounds like a blast

Bradley: I hoped you say that

I want to build some prototypes and see how well it works

Daniel: yeah, nice

Bradley: then throw it on to bike based power wheels

Daniel: you'll have to explain the physical principles sometime in person

Bradley: think mag lev train

Daniel: yeah, except with wheels

that don't touch

Bradley: the wheels take the place of the track

it's a vertically circular track if you will

Daniel: haha, I just need to see some flux lines, that's all

ok, so the rotation mechanism is similar to that of a stepper motor?

so is the inside of the wheel lined with opposing magnetic fields?

Bradley: yeah

Daniel: I wonder how that will hold up under load

Bradley: magnetic force is more powerful then gravity

but yeah I want to see that too

like can it handle 300 lbs

I think neodymium magnets can easily handle that

Daniel: the car + a rider?

Bradley: yeah

Daniel: conceivably this should be more efficient than a standard motor

Bradley: yeah no friction

Daniel: like a brushless motor

Bradley: exactly

Daniel: You know what, we may need to include some sort of rolling element to hold everything in place

Bradley: rolling element?

Daniel: well, ideally the outer rim would never touch the inner rim

Bradley: yeah

Daniel: and would "levitate" on the magnetic fields

Bradley: yes

Daniel: I guess we'll find out as we prototype, but I was reading that tolerances have to be really tight

so if we needed to we could use Mag fields for propulsion and a bearing for suspension

Also: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8643

Bradley: yeah there are companies that sell magnets in quantities of 100-500

I think we would be looking at those

Daniel: true

Bradley: and a little flatter

Daniel: so true

Bradley: but I'm going to look into engineering texts on maglev trains and such

I'm guessing they are using eletro magnets

or even super conductors

also there are low speed designs and high speed designs of linear motors

Daniel: well, the control magnets have to be electro-magnets (obviously)

Bradley: yeah

Daniel: I know that maglev trains' active component is a liquid nitrogen/helium cooled superconducting magnet on the track

Bradley: hmmm

LN2 on a power wheels

Daniel: the level of coordination required for a bullet train's magnet systems is scary

haha, it depends on the superconductor, now you may be able to do it with liquid helium

they are getting closer and closer to room temperature

but they aren't there yet

I studied this in Materials Science

Bradley: closest I got was physics 2 and parts of quantum mechanics

Daniel: close enough

anyway, I don't know if we can sustain electromagnets on low power

for the levitation part

Bradley: oh and lots of empirical science in highschool engineering

I need to study magnetism again

do they require high voltage?

Daniel: not necessarily

Bradley: lots of current?

Daniel: the magnetic field is proportional to the current

I just had a thought about the positioning of the levitation magnets

for some reason, I am thinking we'll need an odd number of magnets on the outer rim and an even on the inner rim

so there's not really a low equilibrium position

are you going to be at the space tonight?

Bradley: nope

I'm going to chicago

I'll be back in the space next week

Daniel: ok, I am going out of town Friday-Sunday

we'll coordinate

Bradley: ok

Daniel: I don't know if you read this article, it looks very good: http://www.recumbentjournal.com/news/gear/item/53-hubless-wheels-emerge-on-recumbent- trike.html

Oooh! We can implement a sort of regenerative braking (maybe)

do we have a wiki-space for this project?

Bradley: not yet

go ahead and make one

Daniel: will do

Bradley: though I am curious as to what kind of magnets they used.

I'm assuming they used those cheap magnet strips

Daniel: the article says it uses magnetic strips

but it doesn't state what kind or what strength

Bradley: yeah, that makes my mind think craft store supply magnets that come in rolls

I'm assuming the bulk of their cost came from the fact they used high grade aluminum

and the machining on those hubs looks professionally done on a lathe

or a water jet cutter

I'm thinking the heavy duty ones will work

Daniel: I wonder if we could embed square magnets into the frame of the wheel with good results

it seems to me that most magnetic strips are rather weak

Bradley: I was thinking of gluing them for a working protype

Daniel: right

Bradley: and using kids bike wheels

we can remove the spokes and hub once we are satisfied that it will work

Daniel: I am going to copy and paste this conversation into the wiki for future reference